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PostPosted: 2004-12-18 11:18:24
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Joined: 2004-12-18 11:18:24
Hello there,
I am a registered nurse working in the private sector.
We appear to be having increasing difficulty in getting G.Ps to attend the
elderly people in my care. This is proving to be a problem when someone is
close to death. Everyone including the G.Ps accept the person may be at the
end of their life. The problem is although the death is expected the
families may still be put through the trauma of a Post Mortem, due to the
client NOT being seen by a G.P. for a number of weeks. ( 4 to 6 wks ) I have
personally spoken to a Coroner on such an event, he says that P.Ms have to
go on IF the client has not been seen by a G.P.

The G.Ps say because there is no acute illness there is no reason /
obligation to come on home visit just to cast an eye on people. Or tell
us if the client is that bad and we are worried to dial 999 this I feel
is also inappropriate as the Local hospital usually check the client then
transfer them to another Hospital 30 miles away!

We also have conflict where a person dies and when we ring for a G.P. to
come and certify death they ask us to send the person to the funeral
directors or take ages to come to certify ( 14 hrs ) after death. I feel
that we cannot do this as we are then making a descision the person is dead
( i.e. certifying ) This could put us on the spot if family ring in to
enquire how their loved one is!

Does anyone else experience this type of problem

Although we now record every contact & request for a G.P. to visit I still
feel that we may need some advice.

Please does anyone have any advice for me and my team here.

Regards...... Graham


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PostPosted: 2004-12-18 14:42:06
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Joined: 2004-12-18 14:42:06
Graham Pemberton wrote ...
> We appear to be having increasing difficulty in getting G.Ps to
> attend the elderly people in my care. This is proving to be a
> problem when someone is close to death. Everyone including
> the G.Ps accept the person may be at the end of their life.
> The G.Ps say because there is no acute illness there is no
> reason / obligation to come on home visit just to cast an eye
> on people. Or tell us if the client is that bad and we are
> worried to dial 999 this I feel is also inappropriate as the
> Local hospital usually check the client then transfer them to
> another Hospital 30 miles away!

Your residents have as much right to an NHS GP as anyone else does.

If a doctor has a useful function to perform, eg symptom relief, then a
patient is entitled to appropriate care.

While I sympathise with the situation that arises should the patient die,
the GPs job is not post mortem prevention (sorry to put it so baldly,
but you know what I mean!)

I suggest:

1. Always say to the doctor are you refusing to visit this patient and
take a name and other details (especially times). You might consider
recording such phone calls, and saying to the Doctor This call is being
recorded to help us to improve and develop our service BEFORE you get into
the details!.

2. Pass a report of the matter to the family, and to the coroner - both have
a right to know, and a need to know.

3. If you get situation where there is clear evidence (and plenty of
witnesses) that a patient has suffered due to a doctors refusal to visit,
then you should send a report to the local authorities - and consider
reporting to the GMC.

Like it or not, your duty is to the patient, not the relatives; should they
be distressed by these events, which Im sure happens, your best action is
to give them all the details you can, including who to complain to (have an
advice sheet photocopied); give them your apologies that YOU could do no
more, and your willingness to be a witness. I agree that the system is
putting relatives in a difficult position - but that is not your concern,
beyod being honest and curteous. It is not for you to be an apologist for
the NHS!

The only way to stop the decline of the NHS - and individual lack of
professionalism - is to use the law; voting Labour no longer works.

Best wishes,

Andrew


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PostPosted: 2004-12-18 17:27:03
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Joined: 2004-12-18 17:27:03
Right from one Graham to another
First follow Andrews advice its VERY sound
Second You know the Care Standards people or if you are not get to know them
and tell them

Third get the RCN right behind you


GPs should visit (if I remember correctly ) every client in Nursing Care
monthly by their own guidelines (and I think law too)


A lot dont because of cost some do a regular ward round to sort out non
urgent stuff weekly or fortnightly




--
Regards
Gray

RN1&2 now Peripatetic A1 Assessor



> Your residents have as much right to an NHS GP as anyone else does.
>
> If a doctor has a useful function to perform, eg symptom relief, then a
> patient is entitled to appropriate care.
>
> While I sympathise with the situation that arises should the patient die,
> the GPs job is not post mortem prevention (sorry to put it so baldly,
> but you know what I mean!)
>
> I suggest:
>
> 1. Always say to the doctor are you refusing to visit this patient and
> take a name and other details (especially times). You might consider
> recording such phone calls, and saying to the Doctor This call is being
> recorded to help us to improve and develop our service BEFORE you get
into
> the details!.
>
> 2. Pass a report of the matter to the family, and to the coroner - both
have
> a right to know, and a need to know.
>
> 3. If you get situation where there is clear evidence (and plenty of
> witnesses) that a patient has suffered due to a doctors refusal to visit,
> then you should send a report to the local authorities - and consider
> reporting to the GMC.
>
> Like it or not, your duty is to the patient, not the relatives; should
they
> be distressed by these events, which Im sure happens, your best action is
> to give them all the details you can, including who to complain to (have
an
> advice sheet photocopied); give them your apologies that YOU could do no
> more, and your willingness to be a witness. I agree that the system is
> putting relatives in a difficult position - but that is not your concern,
> beyod being honest and curteous. It is not for you to be an apologist for
> the NHS!
>
> The only way to stop the decline of the NHS - and individual lack of
> professionalism - is to use the law; voting Labour no longer works.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Andrew


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PostPosted: 2004-12-18 18:31:47
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Joined: 2004-12-18 18:31:47
Graham A Wilson wrote ...
> A lot dont because of cost some do a regular ward round
> to sort out non urgent stuff weekly or fortnightly.

That would be a very good move, pre-empting many of the problems.

Any sudden death is a matter for the coroner, but if the patient has been
regularly reviewed, and has pre-existing illness, a PM can usually be
avoided.

The coroner could well start asking awkward questions if (probably)
unnecessary PMs start being required frequently; it raises a question of (at
best) neglect.As well as being an avoidable and unnecesary expense .. not to
mention the pain and religious difficulties for some relatives.

Im a total believer in passing the buck; the trick is to pass it to where
it belongs; in this case, the GPs basket.Refreshing change from its usual
destination - the managers In Tray!

A


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PostPosted: 2004-12-19 07:10:49
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Joined: 2004-12-19 07:10:49
Graham Pemberton typed:
> Hello there,
> I am a registered nurse working in the private sector.
> We appear to be having increasing difficulty in getting G.Ps to attend
> the
> elderly people in my care. This is proving to be a problem when someone is
> close to death. Everyone including the G.Ps accept the person may be at
> the
> end of their life. The problem is although the death is expected the
> families may still be put through the trauma of a Post Mortem, due to the
> client NOT being seen by a G.P. for a number of weeks. ( 4 to 6 wks ) I
> have
> personally spoken to a Coroner on such an event, he says that P.Ms have
> to
> go on IF the client has not been seen by a G.P.
> SNIPPED<
> Please does anyone have any advice for me and my team here.
>
> Regards...... Graham

You might want to run this past someone at the NMC, if not done so already.
--
Eddie
http://www.freeinformationcentre.co.uk


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PostPosted: 2004-12-19 10:41:39
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Joined: 2004-12-19 10:41:39
Thanks for the replies you guys,

Yes we are recording contact with GPs. and I did send an e-mail to the NMC
..over two weeks ago but still not had a reply.

We will continue to monitor the situation and when we feel we have enough
evidence this will be put to the local PCT first. We obviously would like
to have a good working relationship with our GPs but if we cant resolve
things the next step will need be activated.

regards Graham


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PostPosted: 2004-12-20 16:42:28
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Joined: 2004-12-20 16:42:28
>A lot dont because of cost

Difficult to understand when our local out of hours (most deaths occur OOH)
recieve over Ł600 for a night shift.

Cheers

Blippie
--
Ten minutes of this rain will do more good in half an hour than a fortnight
of ordinary rain in a month.


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PostPosted: 2004-12-23 16:32:43
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Joined: 2004-12-23 16:32:43
Hi All ...

Just had a reply from the NMC ...

Nurses CAN confirm an expected death ... but the responsibility to certify
is the G.P.s

I have been advised to speak to the local medical personel ( G.P.s ) and
discuss protocols ....

So on with the show :-)

and by the way ........ MERRY CHRISTMAS :-))

regards Graham


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